I have a question about espresso making temperature. If the ideal brewing temperature is 92 to 96 C, then why does espresso (or in my case I actually use a stove top Bialetti pot) taste good? In making espresso you are pushing steam through coffee grounds and iisn't steam at a temperature over 100C?
In a moka pot the steam pushes hot water through the grounds. You are not actually making coffee with the steam.
I should also clarify that while a moka pot makes perfectly good coffee it is not espresso. Espresso by definition of coffee made with high pressure. Espresso requires a minimum of about 9 bars of pressure. A moka pot is more in the 1-1.5 bar range. If you look at your moka pot there should be a pressure release valve that will pop long before anything approaching 9 bars. The pot just is not designed for that pressure and without the pressure release valve could actually explode.
Not really if I had to guess just slightly below boiling. I have limited experience with Moka pots but a vacuum pot works on a similar but not identical principal and the water that hits the beans is just a few degrees off of boiling when it gets pushed up to the grounds in a vacuum pot. Wlevation will also affect the temperature since water boils at a lower temperature with higher altitude. My guess would be that a Moka pot or a vacuum pot will be as close as you get to the ideal temperature in regular coffee. Most drip coffee makers use water far below the ideal temperature. The only consistent exception to this that I am aware of is the Technivorm which does not use a pump and uses water pressure to force the hot water into the filter basket.
Brewing coffee at 197.6 - 204.8F (which I can do at home) certainly produces the best results for me. However, a liquid at that temperature burns my tongue something fierce. I work at a cafe with pretty low-grade equipment; we use a large drip coffee pot and the coffee comes out at around 185F. I recognize that this is too low but our management won't do anything about that. That being said, 185F is too hot, even for me, a heavy coffee drinker, to enjoy. I think I can figure out how to adjust the temperature of the warmer (a hot plate) that maintains the temperature after brewing is complete.
Would letting coffee cool to a certain temperature and then keeping it there before serving affect taste? I was thinking that somewhere around 155 - 160F would be a good temperature to serve at--immediately drinkable, I think, while still hot enough for it to be at least warm until it is finished.
I am SO glad to read your post, because I have the same problem. Everyone who knows me is aware that I love coffee, so they are flabbergasted when they see me put an ice cube into my coffee cup before I serve myself. (You can use filtered water for ice cubes just as you can for coffee.) If the coffee was made strong with this in mind, the ice doesn't dilute it too much.
Another solution is to use "cubies" - reusable pillows of liquid that you freeze. I bought mine in the camping department, near the ice chests. You put them into your beverage and they don't dilute it. But since they're made of plastic, you may notice their flavor. When I use these at home, here's what I do to minimize that risk: I put several cubies into a large cup like I would do if I were about to have a glass of iced tea. I pour my coffee into the cup right over the cubies, which cool the coffee as it passes over them. Then, I immediately remove the cubies with a spoon, wash and dry them, and return them to the freezer for the next time. Sometimes I add a little more coffee to bring the temperature up a notch. Now my coffee is ready to drink - not too hot, and black, just the way I like it. If I am especially lazy, I just pour a cup of coffee and drop a couple of cubies into it; but then I do notice a plastic taste, so it's not as good a solution.
I'd love to read anyone's solutions to this problem - and I won't apologize for having a sensitive mouth. It's served me well all my life, so I should treat it well in return. :)
I have mixed feelings on this. The good is that you are going to burn the coffee a little less. The bad is that you are essentially serving cold coffee. At some point someone is going to add milk to the coffee. This knocks the warmest coffee down to immediately drinkable so will probably knock what you are suggesting down to cold. I also think but can't prove that there is an unequal loss of heat in a cup of coffee where the coffee cools from the top therefore you have warm coffee longer where as if you start off will cool drinkable coffee you may have cold coffee before you hit the bottom but like I said that is just a theory. The milk/creamer is my big worry.
There is an interesting discussion regarding flat & ramped brewing temperatures on commercial espresso machines...
https://www.espressoquest.com/Blogs/6/43.html
The author discusses how starting a lower temperature of 92C and finishing at 88C and can produce "smoother, richer and more chocolaty" espresso. He suggests that the high flat brew temperature of commercial espresso machines (even high end machines) within the 92-96C range are "too hot and too stable".
I have a related question, and can not seem to find the answer online:
What is the ideal hold temperature for coffee, if such a thing exists? I suspect that the electric hotplate warmer on our office coffee maker is running too hot. 15-20 minutes after brewing the coffee tastes burnt.
I have begun to leave the warmer off and simply microwave tepid coffee, which seems to have made this a non-issue, but my science background won't let it rest. I would like to know the ideal hold temp, and if possible what specific chemical degradations are causing such a strong burnt flavor.
If one uses Two(2) filters (paper) you will have no "burn" at the 2 hr. mark. I use one mesh & one paper filter.
It's not the heat so much but the sediment that burns.
Comments
Bialetti temperature
I have a question about espresso making temperature. If the ideal brewing temperature is 92 to 96 C, then why does espresso (or in my case I actually use a stove top Bialetti pot) taste good? In making espresso you are pushing steam through coffee grounds and iisn't steam at a temperature over 100C?
RE: Bialetti temperature
In a moka pot the steam pushes hot water through the grounds. You are not actually making coffee with the steam.
I should also clarify that while a moka pot makes perfectly good coffee it is not espresso. Espresso by definition of coffee made with high pressure. Espresso requires a minimum of about 9 bars of pressure. A moka pot is more in the 1-1.5 bar range. If you look at your moka pot there should be a pressure release valve that will pop long before anything approaching 9 bars. The pot just is not designed for that pressure and without the pressure release valve could actually explode.
Thanks for the clarification.
Thanks for the clarification. But do you know what temperature the water that does get pushed through the grounds is?
RE: Thanks for the clarification.
Not really if I had to guess just slightly below boiling. I have limited experience with Moka pots but a vacuum pot works on a similar but not identical principal and the water that hits the beans is just a few degrees off of boiling when it gets pushed up to the grounds in a vacuum pot. Wlevation will also affect the temperature since water boils at a lower temperature with higher altitude. My guess would be that a Moka pot or a vacuum pot will be as close as you get to the ideal temperature in regular coffee. Most drip coffee makers use water far below the ideal temperature. The only consistent exception to this that I am aware of is the Technivorm which does not use a pump and uses water pressure to force the hot water into the filter basket.
Serving Temperature
Brewing coffee at 197.6 - 204.8F (which I can do at home) certainly produces the best results for me. However, a liquid at that temperature burns my tongue something fierce. I work at a cafe with pretty low-grade equipment; we use a large drip coffee pot and the coffee comes out at around 185F. I recognize that this is too low but our management won't do anything about that. That being said, 185F is too hot, even for me, a heavy coffee drinker, to enjoy. I think I can figure out how to adjust the temperature of the warmer (a hot plate) that maintains the temperature after brewing is complete.
Would letting coffee cool to a certain temperature and then keeping it there before serving affect taste? I was thinking that somewhere around 155 - 160F would be a good temperature to serve at--immediately drinkable, I think, while still hot enough for it to be at least warm until it is finished.
Love coffee but can't take the heat
I am SO glad to read your post, because I have the same problem. Everyone who knows me is aware that I love coffee, so they are flabbergasted when they see me put an ice cube into my coffee cup before I serve myself. (You can use filtered water for ice cubes just as you can for coffee.) If the coffee was made strong with this in mind, the ice doesn't dilute it too much.
Another solution is to use "cubies" - reusable pillows of liquid that you freeze. I bought mine in the camping department, near the ice chests. You put them into your beverage and they don't dilute it. But since they're made of plastic, you may notice their flavor. When I use these at home, here's what I do to minimize that risk: I put several cubies into a large cup like I would do if I were about to have a glass of iced tea. I pour my coffee into the cup right over the cubies, which cool the coffee as it passes over them. Then, I immediately remove the cubies with a spoon, wash and dry them, and return them to the freezer for the next time. Sometimes I add a little more coffee to bring the temperature up a notch. Now my coffee is ready to drink - not too hot, and black, just the way I like it. If I am especially lazy, I just pour a cup of coffee and drop a couple of cubies into it; but then I do notice a plastic taste, so it's not as good a solution.
I'd love to read anyone's solutions to this problem - and I won't apologize for having a sensitive mouth. It's served me well all my life, so I should treat it well in return. :)
RE: Serving Temperature
I have mixed feelings on this. The good is that you are going to burn the coffee a little less. The bad is that you are essentially serving cold coffee. At some point someone is going to add milk to the coffee. This knocks the warmest coffee down to immediately drinkable so will probably knock what you are suggesting down to cold. I also think but can't prove that there is an unequal loss of heat in a cup of coffee where the coffee cools from the top therefore you have warm coffee longer where as if you start off will cool drinkable coffee you may have cold coffee before you hit the bottom but like I said that is just a theory. The milk/creamer is my big worry.
There is an interesting
There is an interesting discussion regarding flat & ramped brewing temperatures on commercial espresso machines...
https://www.espressoquest.com/Blogs/6/43.html
The author discusses how starting a lower temperature of 92C and finishing at 88C and can produce "smoother, richer and more chocolaty" espresso. He suggests that the high flat brew temperature of commercial espresso machines (even high end machines) within the 92-96C range are "too hot and too stable".
I have a related question,
I have a related question, and can not seem to find the answer online:
What is the ideal hold temperature for coffee, if such a thing exists? I suspect that the electric hotplate warmer on our office coffee maker is running too hot. 15-20 minutes after brewing the coffee tastes burnt.
I have begun to leave the warmer off and simply microwave tepid coffee, which seems to have made this a non-issue, but my science background won't let it rest. I would like to know the ideal hold temp, and if possible what specific chemical degradations are causing such a strong burnt flavor.
Cheers!
~Mike
Hold temp.
If one uses Two(2) filters (paper) you will have no "burn" at the 2 hr. mark. I use one mesh & one paper filter.
It's not the heat so much but the sediment that burns.